If things got really tough, the triari would fight in front. 'a handful') was a tactical unit of the Roman Republic adopted during the Samnite Wars (343–290 BC). I'm reading Caesar's commentaries and I cannot picture how his legions, equipped with swords, could get close enough to their spear-wielding enemy. The spanish style gladius came late in the Republic. It worked best when the phalanx could put several ranks of spears
Julian also had a very keen interest in the phalanx, being the a great admirer of Alexander. considerably over the centuries between their first appearance and the late Empire. Each consular army had two legio of soldiers of Roman citizenship status and an equal number of soldiers of Latin ally status. Lighter than phalanxes in several senses. The battles selected are interesting and highlights each formation’s weaknesses and strengths. While Alexander’s empire grew and fragmented, The Romans were busy with their arduous task of conquering Italy. as anvils to their cavalry's hammers. Working with significantly longer Macedonian lances was
A heavy lancer, whose weapon could reach past
The entire strength of the phalanx resides solely on its ability to deal with the enemies in a front facing attack. According to Polybius, there was a Roman saying - "down to the triari" - which meant being down to your last resources. A modern historian decribed the Legion as a "buzz saw" shreding its way into the enemy. Publisher: Routledge. Often it was impossible to mass the entire legion/phalanx on the open ground available, so commanders found that allowing independant sub units the legion could effectively manuver around bits of terrain that would disrupt a single mass. ._3-SW6hQX6gXK9G4FM74obr{display:inline-block;vertical-align:text-bottom;width:16px;height:16px;font-size:16px;line-height:16px} If he moved too much, you would loose your protection. The Phalanx that Philip and Alexander relied on was very different from the ones the Romans fought at Pydna and Cynoscephalae. Have you watched Time Commanders on YouTube? I have read that the Gauls would attack in a great rush and shout on the Roman front rank. For more information about the Phalanx versus infantry debate I would recommend that you read The Art of War by Machiavelli it discusses in great depth and detail benefits of Pike Men (phalanx) and Shield bearers (cohorts) and argues the point that the most effective armies are composed of a combination of the two as GRUPI has suggested. Ancient History Encyclopedia. His army was never a phalanx army armed with the sarissa. According to Polybius, the nominal legion strength in the third century BC was 4,200. sides, or, especially,at their rears. They were very heavy shock formations, but they were never very manueverable. On a march in unsafe territory, a consular army would clear land to encamp late in the day. would press in too closely for long edged weapons to swing side to side. How would it work when defending a city? Each maniple had at least one centurion. At some times, there were distinct weapons, some lighter
Please read the rules before participating, as we remove all comments which break the rules. The hasta was out of fashion for the hastati before the Punic Wars, by which point they were equipped with swords and Rome was still a central Italian power. This was comprised of ten maniples of 420 soldiers each. But a Marian legion (in cohorts) could break itself up into sizable chunks to outmanoeuvre the phalanx. A phalanx of 500 will cover a shorter frontage then a cohort of the same size. It had been originally intended for extreme tactical maneuvrability and to be used along with excellent cavalry and light troops. As to the question of legion vs. phalanx: a legion with the manipular system would be very difficult to defeat a phalanx, assuming even terrain, but his is assuming that the standard manipular doctrine is played out: first wave, then second wave, in head on fight. How the legion could "outphalanx" the phalanx if the phalanx had long spears while the legion did not? When the Romans fought the Macedonians, especially at Cynoscephalae in 197, they were able to use the better maneuverability of the maniples and the ability to deputize them (they are much better articulated than the clunky phalanx) to force the Greeks onto unfavorable ground where they could disrupt the formation and flank it. The romans used turmae (contingents of cavalry recruited from allied tribes) to great extent. In addition, the legion
This resulted in less emphasis on Alexander's strategy of flexibility and discipline and more on sheer weight in a direct frontal engagement, which meant that the Romans would butcher them every time. They couldn't do so quickly, and they
.LalRrQILNjt65y-p-QlWH{fill:var(--newRedditTheme-actionIcon);height:18px;width:18px}.LalRrQILNjt65y-p-QlWH rect{stroke:var(--newRedditTheme-metaText)}._3J2-xIxxxP9ISzeLWCOUVc{height:18px}.FyLpt0kIWG1bTDWZ8HIL1{margin-top:4px}._2ntJEAiwKXBGvxrJiqxx_2,._1SqBC7PQ5dMOdF0MhPIkA8{height:24px;vertical-align:middle;width:24px}._1SqBC7PQ5dMOdF0MhPIkA8{-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;display:-ms-inline-flexbox;display:inline-flex;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-pack:center;justify-content:center} Carl S RE:Phalanx vs Roman cohort- carl 4/19/2006 8:36:40 AM "some contemporary descriptions of legions in action spoke of them as giant stabbing machines." Fairly
Another important flaw in the phalanx army was it's inability to deal with any attacks from the flanks or rear. After Pyrrhus’ invasion, the Romans fought titanic wars … As long as the phalanx can't be flanked and the Greeks would have archers on the walls I would imagine it would be very hard to get in the city, since the Romans couldn't use their flexibility. on each forward rank. "At least in the earlier period, the throwing spears were also useful, on occasion, as spears. Romans have good staying power so meeting 2 phalanxes with 1 legio unit will work for a while but only while overall army numbers are similar or the romans have a morale/experience advantage. ), but in the end they didn't need to. formation. ._12xlue8dQ1odPw1J81FIGQ{display:inline-block;vertical-align:middle} While Alexander’s empire grew and fragmented, The Romans were busy with their arduous task of conquering Italy. PHALANX vs LEGION . Attempting to re-orient to face the flanking force simply presented the flank to the force posturing near what used to be the front. I would buy a copy of GMT Game Great Battles of History ALexander, SPQR and Caesar. Recommended By. 2 @Anixx It did not. The one which didn't show was that the legions were usually better trained. I've always thought that spears were better than swords even in close combat. to either force the other side to turn, in which case the phalanx could
Roman legion vs Macedonian phalanx (Macedonian wars)Battle of Pydna 168 BC and battle of Cynoscephalae 197 BC Support new videos from Epimetheus on Patreon! Answers must be in-depth and comprehensive, or they will be removed. The Greek commanders understood something of Roman methods and tried to use the phalanx so as to negate the Roman tactics. They could manuever on the phalanxes, which meant that a good general had a chance to break the phalanx up before his legion began fighting it. Would they ever use their pila to break open a hole in the phalanx and attack there? They did however, come up with other ways to break phalanxes, like you said, New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the AskHistorians community. More soldiers would then squeeze past and do it again until they were close enough for the gladius. You can't just march a phalanx towards a roman army and beat them head on. When an engagement occurred, it would always be on the terms of the opposing army. let usually lighter armed enemies try to penetrate arguably the heaviest infantry formation every. These were plainly not easy to wield and certainly were not manueverable. Initially adopting a hoplite style phalanx due to influence from Southern Italian Hellenic colonies, … When in a 1 to 1 engagement with a roman army, makedonian armies simply … What do you think on Phalanx vs Cohort which was better/stronger? /*# sourceMappingURL=https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/chunkCSS/IdCard.de628c13230c59091a5d.css.map*/. At some times, there were distinct weapons, some lighter
I recall a summary
best. Despite the war - … suited for fighting in a coherent legionary formation, since it's considerably
As for the phalanx vs legionary-discussion, it has been done before. A consular army camp was laid out in a square about 700 yards on a side. Polybius on the Macedonian Wars gets into some of the nitty gritty, but basically the gist is that during the Samnite Wars, the Romans found that their phalanxes were being beaten by the Samnite light infantry and cavalry, who were used to fighting the mountainous terrain of Samnium. It was standard. best top new controversial old q&a. "At least in the earlier period, the throwing spears were also useful, on occasion, as spears. Less well trained enemies were dogmeat. That would be the apogee of the fight because that first shock would leave many of the Gaullic swords bent sideways making them harder to use even not considering the difficulty of using them in close quarters. weapons on an organic basis. Phalanxes were horrifically slow to reposition on the battlefield, and could never mount an attack that their opponents could not refuse. Certain areas appeared to specialize in certain weapons. a barrage of pila to encumber the phalanxes shield, ducking under the long, heavy spears, and the legionaries were at the hoplites throats, inside their
Macedonian guard phalanx surges ahead. Out and back, a style suited for
If a gap opened the more flexible Roman formations and command structure could take advantage of the momentary 'flanks'. .ehsOqYO6dxn_Pf9Dzwu37{margin-top:0;overflow:visible}._2pFdCpgBihIaYh9DSMWBIu{height:24px}._2pFdCpgBihIaYh9DSMWBIu.uMPgOFYlCc5uvpa2Lbteu{border-radius:2px}._2pFdCpgBihIaYh9DSMWBIu.uMPgOFYlCc5uvpa2Lbteu:focus,._2pFdCpgBihIaYh9DSMWBIu.uMPgOFYlCc5uvpa2Lbteu:hover{background-color:var(--newRedditTheme-navIconFaded10);outline:none}._38GxRFSqSC-Z2VLi5Xzkjy{color:var(--newCommunityTheme-actionIcon)}._2DO72U0b_6CUw3msKGrnnT{border-top:none;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText);cursor:pointer;padding:8px 16px 8px 8px;text-transform:none}._2DO72U0b_6CUw3msKGrnnT:hover{background-color:#0079d3;border:none;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-body);fill:var(--newCommunityTheme-body)} But like the phalanx it had group cohesion and fought as a unit, unlike "barbarian" infantry which fought more like a crowd of berserkers. And, even coming straight at a phalanx,
At least in the earlier period, the throwing spears were also useful, on occasion, as spears. If I'm reading this correctly the cohort did not become a true battle unit untill after the Greeks were conquored. In the accounts i have read it seems to end in a draw. 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The titanic struggle between Rome and Carthage had prevented the Roman's from pursuing a policy of all out war against the Greeks. In times of emergency, the consular armies would be double strength each being 40,000. The Macedonian cavalry was good, but limited. And, unlike a phalanx, a legion had considerable ability to turn while maintaining it's unit cohesion. After the fall of mighty Carthage in the Second Punic War (202 BC) Rome began to prepare for the invasion of Greece. I'm just wondering how that scenario would play out. Initially adopting a hoplite style phalanx due to influence from Southern Italian Hellenic colonies, the army eventually transformed into the flexible manipular legion. wealthy or aristocratic background in ancient times. The spears would point forward. In addition there could be auxillia. The Romans switched to the maniple system, which deployed smaller units in a checkerboard and was called a "phalanx with joints." When legions faced phalanxes, they had several advantages. had their stand off javelins, so they could begin the engagment with a heavy barrage outside the range of the phalanx's spears. The Manipular system was adopted at around 315 BC, during the Second Samnite War. It was great against the sort of Near Eastern militaries the Greeks already dominated in the
as flexible as phalanxes. Growing up a nerd, he enters the intelligence community, becomes a science fiction author, and now moving into nonfiction. The Roman soldiers at first were forced backwards but they rapidly improvised by retreating to uneven ground and organized successful counter attacks into the gaps in the Macedonian formation caused by the unevenness. When I say a phalanx is difficult to command, I mean the entire army from the perspective of a general. When a phalanx hit rugged ground, it disintegrated. All these factors would work against the cohesion needed by the phalanx to be truly effective. Myke Cole uses six battles where the two fighting systems clashed, along with the history surrounding them, to discuss this. They were basically light lancers or swordmen, which was not an optimal configuration. Actually, the earliest known Roman military used phalanxes. Or, if enemy formations appeared at their
Caesar is writing during the epoch when the main legionary unit was the cohort, as opposed to the earlier maniple system that was used in the Second Macedonian War (and, I guess, the others). The legions were invented and perfected over a considerable
The phalanx describes a tactical formation of soldiers whereas a Roman legion is more of an administrative unit, roughly comparable to modern “divisions”. The only example in any one of them where legionarys … more flexible; more manueverable. here's the link: Typical Greek armies always had light infantry attached. This did not necessarily mean numerical superiority, just a superior number of tactical groups of soldiers that could be repositioned on the fly, to exploit the breaks in formation that would inevitably occur from phalanxes constantly re-orienting to face a more agile enemy. This was a refinement of how phalanx commanders sometimes used their light auxillarys on the flanks. Two of the qualities that he brings … Keeping the formation intact was the hardest and most important thing in a phalanx. work in close quarters. Some are always more sucessfull than others in this. They tended, all things equal, to carry somewhat lighter armor. The pattern of use of gladius was stabbing. This change occured before the end of the Punic wars. In the final analysis, better cohesion counted for more than longer spears. The Macedonian phalanx took the concept of cohesive group warfare to another level with the sarissa armed phalangites and under Philip and Alexander, steamrolled every opponent in front of them. This was no different than the same effort of the Roman commanders, or any other leader. Aelianus Tacticus dedicated his drill manual on the phalanx to Hadrian. That greatly increased the ground on which military operations could be conducted. Maniple (Latin: manipulus, lit. Remove Ads Advertisement . At Pydna, as well, it was a force of Greek allies who held the center against the Macedonian advance, preventing the Macedonians from breaking through and allowing the Romans to divert troops to the flanks. a medium length pilum had a chance to do damage. We have also been recommended for educational use by the … Every Legion was accompanied by a artillery group of mobile catapults for field battles. The nasty secret of fighting cavalry was that if you had long weapons and the discipline to hold your formation under charge, you could generally win easily. 1. hoplites also … ground than phalanxes. If I'm reading the dates correctly the manipular Legion had developed either just before or during the early days of the Roman Republic. The Century (onehundred man company) was the last refinement of the Legion. Legion: made up of 10 cohorts; Field army: a grouping of several legions and auxiliary cohorts ; Equites: Each legion was supported by 300 cavalry (equites), sub-divided into ten turmae; Auxilia and velites: allied contingents, … They could operate on notably more rugged
In this they stood apart. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy. When the phalanx got disrupted or broken up, the individual soldiers had to fight one- on - one. Cavalry was unusual in Greek fighting before the era of Macedonian ascendancy. This book is exactly what I expected when I picked it up, a fun opportunity to geek out about to technical aspects of ancient warfare, in this case the relative merits of the Macedonian Phalanx vs the Roman Legion. The legions would be composed into two consular armies, one for each consul. So basically they are playing "Rome: Total War" on the show. The Good – Legion vs Phalanx is highly readable. The praetor or commanding general (typically a consul) would have a loyal following of non-Romans (I believe they were Latin allies) with him as a body guard. horse is actually used in Greek names and generally understood as denoting a
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The two terms aren’t exactly comparable. Cole clearly loves the subject. severe trouble changing direction. But each of these could be said to have one maniple of triari, one maniple of principes and one of hastati. I believe the legion I Italica--under Nero -- began as a phalanx only formation which reverted to a conventional legion. needed to close with their opponents to fight them. Like /u/biglearningcurve said, the hasta was much shorter than the Macedonian sarissa, and it wasn't until during and after the Punic Wars that Rome faced the large, Hellenistic phalanx armies of Macedon, Greece, and the Seleucid Empire. Page: 248. Basically, they were good at moving forward and that's it. Every new campsite would be laid out the exact same way. In simplistic terms the Greeks & others used a lighter armed soldier for fighting in terrain the phalanx was unsuitable for. The Paelignii are overrun even after their standard bearer throws their standard into the midst of the phalanx to get them to hold, but they are routed with heavy losses. was that their long swords tended to be impossible to swing in melees. I think a better comparison would be the Roman legion against the armies of Phillip or Alexander. The Macedonian versions benefited from being
The smallest unit of the legion was a century -- comprised of about 60-80 men. Centurions were responsible for … Paradigmatically, by the Macedonians. .c_dVyWK3BXRxSN3ULLJ_t{border-radius:4px 4px 0 0;height:34px;left:0;position:absolute;right:0;top:0}._1OQL3FCA9BfgI57ghHHgV3{-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-ms-flex-pack:start;justify-content:flex-start;margin-top:32px}._1OQL3FCA9BfgI57ghHHgV3 ._33jgwegeMTJ-FJaaHMeOjV{border-radius:9001px;height:32px;width:32px}._1OQL3FCA9BfgI57ghHHgV3 ._1wQQNkVR4qNpQCzA19X4B6{height:16px;margin-left:8px;width:200px}._39IvqNe6cqNVXcMFxFWFxx{display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;margin:12px 0}._39IvqNe6cqNVXcMFxFWFxx ._29TSdL_ZMpyzfQ_bfdcBSc{-ms-flex:1;flex:1}._39IvqNe6cqNVXcMFxFWFxx .JEV9fXVlt_7DgH-zLepBH{height:18px;width:50px}._39IvqNe6cqNVXcMFxFWFxx ._3YCOmnWpGeRBW_Psd5WMPR{height:12px;margin-top:4px;width:60px}._2iO5zt81CSiYhWRF9WylyN{height:18px;margin-bottom:4px}._2iO5zt81CSiYhWRF9WylyN._2E9u5XvlGwlpnzki78vasG{width:230px}._2iO5zt81CSiYhWRF9WylyN.fDElwzn43eJToKzSCkejE{width:100%}._2iO5zt81CSiYhWRF9WylyN._2kNB7LAYYqYdyS85f8pqfi{width:250px}._2iO5zt81CSiYhWRF9WylyN._1XmngqAPKZO_1lDBwcQrR7{width:120px}._3XbVvl-zJDbcDeEdSgxV4_{border-radius:4px;height:32px;margin-top:16px;width:100%}._2hgXdc8jVQaXYAXvnqEyED{animation:_3XkHjK4wMgxtjzC1TvoXrb 1.5s ease infinite;background:linear-gradient(90deg,var(--newCommunityTheme-field),var(--newCommunityTheme-inactive),var(--newCommunityTheme-field));background-size:200%}._1KWSZXqSM_BLhBzkPyJFGR{background-color:var(--newCommunityTheme-widgetColors-sidebarWidgetBackgroundColor);border-radius:4px;padding:12px;position:relative;width:auto} Phalanx hit rugged ground than phalanxes on a side phalanx vs cohort now concentrate powerful... 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